Kimberly Brown

Nicolás Dumit Estévez Raful Espejo Morel: Kim, we met at The Interdependence Project (IDP) in Manhattan. When I studied meditation there you were in the role of Director of this organization. Meditation for me has come from the Catholic tradition, people like Thomas Merton, and contemplative prayer. How did you find meditation or how did meditation find you?

Kimberly Brown: I was struggling with panic attacks when I discovered meditation. Even after many years of psychotherapy and training to be a psychoanalyst, had no tools to settle my mind and body, although I knew why they were happening. I started attending dharma talks with Buddhist teachers in NYC, and discovered that being in community and practicing mindfulness and compassion enabled me to bring more gentleness and understanding to the panic attacks, and all my experiences.

NDEREM: It is my intention to keep this conversation as secular as possible, not because I have any issues discussing religion or spirituality, but to give more readers access to some of the insights that will emerge. This of course, does not preclude referring to specific terms, and when we do so maybe we can explain them. How would you explain meditation, and what do you see it bringing into such a chaotic world, like the one most of of us inhabit today?

KB: I believe meditation is simply our natural state of mind. I mean, we’re not learning how to meditate, we’re learning to rediscover our capacity for openness and compassion. The practice allows us to let go of all our fixing, and striving, and wishing things were different and that we were different, and instead, gives us the means to simply be in each unfolding moment, without rejecting or correcting or even reacting to our sensations, perceptions, and feelings.

NDEREM: I would like for us to be able to go back and forth between spirituality, religion, creativity, the arts and politics. We live in a planet where it is not possible to escape these realities. How do you navigate all of this within the context of Sangha, or what in Buddhism is understood as community? Here, I am also thinking of community at large and beyond Buddhism.

KB: The ultimate community —especially in Buddhism — is the eco-system that we call Earth. We’re all part of it, and I believe that any stance or opinion that separates us from this fact is what we call a “Wrong View” — an idea or belief that is simply untrue. Wrong views lead most of the harm we experience in environmental, societal, political, and even familial injuries and conflicts — mainly that we are more important than, separate from, or independent of the world and each other. That means that avoiding thoughts, words, and behaviors that are divisive or objectify living beings will lessen the harm we do. And it’s important to know that not talking sides doesn’t mean we can’t see when someone is behaving in harmful ways and take action to stop them — without losing connection or caring for them and us.

NDEREM: Your most recent book is on relationships. Would you tell me about some of the key concepts that you investigate in this publication as well as through meditation? I usually talk about who I am, and who I am becoming in connection to relationships.

KB: Buddhism understands that we live in a relational world where we’re all interdependent with others and the Earth. And yet, sometimes, with the people we love best — our partners, family members, friends — we feel disconnected, disappointed, and even angry. My book explores how we can deepen our connection with our closest relationships, through mindfulness and lovingkindness meditation. I want people to know that even if you’ve done something mean, been hurt by a person you love, or wish for someone else to change, you can use these practices to take care of yourself, make good decisions, say no if needed, and repair ruptures with kindness and wisdom.

NDEREM: The more I learn from my relationships, the more clarity and consciousness that I can access. One of the most difficult practices is to live as an adult with one’s parents, or to be in compassionate relationships with siblings, neighbors, teachers, and even one’s nation. However, I would say that it is in relationships that I can gauge how I am doing spiritually, mentally and emotionally. How has this been for you?

KB: Yes, I feel similarly. In fact, I could easily live in a silent meditation retreat for the rest of my life — because with other people I feel anxious, impatient, and fearful. That’s because of my “karma” — all the conditions and experiences I’ve had in my life and their effect on me. So, the “fruits of my practice”, as the Buddhists say, are that I feel much more at ease with my karma, and I’m able to be closer with the people I love and am better able to communicate with them. And as I’ve connected with my own struggles, I have less judgement for other people, even those who are doing harm, because I know they’re suffering too.  

NDEREM: Can we talk about metta or lovingkindness, another Buddhist term for relating to the world with compassion: May you be happy, may you be healthy, may you be safe…I practice this regularly. How would you do Metta for a world where evil seems to have formed a cluster that threatens to destroy anyone who is not wealthy, white, cisgender, able-bodied, male, and therefore “human”?

KB: Metta is a wish for all beings to have the causes of happiness. And it’s a quality in our minds which is boundless and indiscriminate. That means we have an unlimited quantity of metta, and we don’t leave anyone out of our metta — even those who are dangerous and harmful. We can do this because in the Buddhist tradition, happiness doesn’t mean getting what you want or wanting someone else to get what they want. Real happiness means having an abiding sense of okayness with yourself no matter what the circumstances — it’s not dependent on anything external. So, wishing even our enemies metta means we want for them to abandon greed, delusion, or hatred and feel happiness for their wise and open nature. If our enemies can experience real happiness, then they’ll stop doing harm because their minds are free. And if we’re happy, we stop doing harm because our minds are free too.

NDEREM: I wonder if it is even possible to redeem a nation like the US, founded on liberty for white men and which has thrived on exploitation and extraction. Do you have any practices or words of wisdom to share?

KB: Generate gratitude for what you have so your mind is balanced and you don’t fall into despair. Remember that all your actions have outcomes and you can contribute to harmony, peace, and an equitable society even if it seems small.

NDEREM: I would like to talk about boundaries, if okay with you. There is so much conversation about respecting boundaries and about creating boundaries. I understand that and I also think that relationships entail a respectful crossings of boundaries. When I once said this in class, some of my students looked at me like, “wow.” Safe spaces can only take us so far. Safe relationships remain that. What is your understanding of boundaries and how do practice them?

KB: No relationship or space can be entirely “safe” because it’s not up to us to make other people do what we want them to do. It’s just not possible. I think of relationship boundaries as limits that I choose to follow — not limits that I force you to follow, because that’s impossible. For example, I might decide that I won’t spend time with my brother when he’s drinking. I’m not trying to stop him from drinking because that’s not up to me. I’m saying to myself and him, “this is not a safe or pleasant situation so I won’t put myself in it.” And the same if I refuse to lend my friend money — I’m saying “I wish you well but I’m not going to do that because it’s harmful to me.” I’m not sure what you mean by “respectful crossings”, but if your boundaries are too rigid — “Well you need to do or believe this or we can’t be together” — then you will suffer because being close to other people means that you’re not going to like or agree with everything they say or do.

NDEREM: There is so much eggshell walking these days. I figured that I can’t live like that — in constant fear of making another person upset — and, when I talk about crossing boundaries respectfully, I mean taking chances to get to know my edges and those of others as relationships unfold — and doing so with care and compassion knowing that there can be tension, but also great learning in the process.

Meditation is in fashion in the arts. Many artists are brining meditation to galleries and museums and working with shamans and sound baths in such spaces. Those of us who trailed this path in the arts for decades had to be careful not to be excluded. We also trained for years in these practices. It is great to see such opening happening and I wonder if this is a fad. I would like to continue to see art (creativity) and spirituality in dialogue. Any thoughts?

KB: From a Buddhist view, meditation is a tool to alleviate suffering – the suffering caused by greed, hatred, and ignorance. Many artists create art for the same reason, and I hope to see more dialogue and cross-disciplinary creation with this shared purpose. Otherwise, meditation just becomes entertainment and loses its power to transform and inspire, and art does too. 

NDEREM: Can we talk about spiritual bypassing, or using spirituality to gloss over items that need honest discussions? I was in a group where the subject of identities from a Buddhist perspective came up. During this practice I was initially feeling great about the possibility of relinquishing roles and identities as a liberatory exercise. I then stopped myself on my tracks and asked, “What about people who have had identities imposed on them?” One friend went as far as to comment how she heard someone said that some identities follow some people like a shadow. I thought about the Black young man who went to pick up his brother and happened to go to the wrong door was shot by an Euro-American elder. I have also read in one of George Yancy’s interviews something to the extent that, being a Black body is in itself a transgression. How do I keep rooted in spiritual teachings knowing that the world can be messy?

 KB: Identity is constructed, it’s not inherent. That’s the important point in Buddhism. Understanding that our identities are, in part, imposed (by society, by family, by institutions) is valuable because it shows us how they get constructed and created. From a Buddhist view, we don’t need to get rid of our identity, but when we understand it’s not solid and fixed, we suffer a lot less because we don’t have to cling to it or fight it. It’s the deep wisdom of interdependence to recognize how identities operate in the world that created them — because as long as we are identified as this or that by others in society, we will experience privilege, oppression, or any type of bias, both positive and negative. These experiences must be honored, even if the identity isn’t “real”.

NDEREM: The Interdependence Project closed recently. This was an organization where many of us learned our mediation skills and learned to guide mediations with groups. This has been one of the most valuable experiences I have had. I thank the anonymous angel who made my learning possible, as well as you and each one of the teachers in this program. Is there anything you would like to say?

KB: May the efforts of the Interdependence Project take root and flourish!

NDEREM: Thank you for your recorded meditations for parents, partners, friends…What a gift.

KB: Many blessings for your work and your practice!

Photo of Kimberly Brown: Craig Geller

Kimberly Brown’s links: Website / Instagram / Facebook / Free Book / Blog / Substack

Kimberly Brown is a meditation teacher and author. She leads classes and retreats that emphasize the power of compassion and kindness meditation to reconnect us to ourselves and others. She studies in both the Tibetan and Insight schools of Buddhism and is a certified mindfulness instructor. Her latest book, Happy Relationships: 25 Buddhist Practices to Transform Your Connection with Your Partner, Family, and Friends, was recently released by Prometheus Books. You can learn more about Kimberly by clicking HERE